UP DOWN UP - Interview with author Kim Nordström

Finally, a manager and leadership book for the games industry.

UP DOWN UP is a unique book. It's probably the only management and leadership book for the games industry worth reading. Kim Nordström, whom I've known for almost a decade, is an avid fan of Jim Collins, and how he writes Up Down Up brings to mind how Collins delivers knowledge to his readers.

Kim's book, Up Down Up, is coming out today, on January 19th, 2024, and I recently caught up with Kim to ask him questions about the book, the origin story, and more.

The interview with Kim Nordström

Hi Kim, first of all, congratulations on the book. It's great to have you answer these questions for the EGD readers!

First question: can you share why you wanted to write this book?

I was fortunate to be part of two amazing growth journeys with King and Paradox Interactive. Both companies had everything right, ranging from the best people and great culture to outstanding ability to create their type of games to running solid businesses and being profitable companies. But both King and Paradox also peaked while I was there; what had previously worked so well was no longer working as expected. King had rough times after its IPO, with growing pains and a decrease in the size of its audience, while Paradox invested too much outside of its niche, causing a lack of focus on its core business.

Two years ago, I had time to reflect on these two journeys and their ups and downs. Even though I was part of the management, what happened wasn't apparent to me or others. How could two so successful companies end up in a decline? I got obsessed, trying to understand what it takes to build a successful game company beyond "having great people" and "building awesome games," and equally obsessed with figuring out why some of the most successful game companies often tend to fuck it up. For my sanity, I needed to understand the reasons. While researching and interviewing people, I realized there weren't any books targeting the game industry like this one. I always wanted to write a book, so I thought, "Why not write one now?"

Two years later, the book, UP DOWN UP, is done. 

How would you describe the end result? What is UP DOWN UP?

The book is written around the “four phases to rule them all” that almost every game company goes through. The phases are startup, growth, maturity, and decline. Many founders and CEOs I talked to tell me their company is unique and how they found their way to operate successfully. However, after a few questions and discussions, I can often guestimate their internal challenges and activities. A pretty common response is, “How did you know that?” whereas I then answer, “You follow the same pattern as many of the other companies in your phase.”

Many successful game companies are unique on some levels. Still, a company's journey, through its phases, with success and failure, follows specific patterns, and the book attempts to describe them. One of the significant learnings coming out of the book is that there are clear patterns in what many game companies do to become successful. 

What is your favorite part of the book?

I have kept somewhat even quality across the book, but it's been challenging as a first-time author, so some areas are better than others. My favorite part of the book is the first phase, called "The Foundation of a Successful Game Company," where I write about company culture, what it is, and why it is so important. This part is my favorite because I had little intention of writing about culture from the beginning, and once I realized I had to include something about it, it was also the most challenging part to describe. 

While writing it, I discussed with Alex and Luis at Rovio about doing a keynote at Roviocon 2022 and agreed it should be about company culture. It pushed me to go even deeper into dissecting why culture is such an integral part of a company's success and pushed me to explain it better since I had to stand on stage in front of 600-700 people and talk about it. It was a terrifying moment, but I got good feedback, and in the end, that chapter became my favorite part of the book, probably because I pushed extra hard to get it right.

You interviewed hundreds of gaming founders, CEOs, and executives for this book. Which of the stories really resonated with you?

I heard so many stories; what is included in the book is just the tip of the iceberg. Throughout the research for the book, while interviewing, I tried different techniques to get people to share their stories comfortably, and I tried many different topics. What always ended up becoming fun and exciting conversations was the intersection between the creative and commercial side of the business. I especially think about conversations with a dear friend, David Polfeldt, previous CEO at Massive Entertainment, and John Earner at Space Ape. They both used analogies about game companies being Artists or Entertainers.

I have a quote in the book where John stated: “There are artists, and there are entertainers. Artists paint for themselves, they care less about what others really think about their art. Entertainers are the opposite, they want to walk into a crowded stadium that is sold out. That's what they look for, an area to entertain!”.

What John says resonates so well with me. I believe in the art that some creative people possess when creating games. But I also believe that you are only halfway there if you don't get to appreciate the love from the players and iterate and build on your game with them. 

What was the most surprising thing you learned while working UP DOWN UP?

I am super happy, a bit proud, and still surprised by the tremendous support I have achieved while researching and interviewing for the book. I had five interviews with Ilkka Paananen and recurring interviews with several others in the management team at Supercell, without knowing anyone there before. They invited me and openly shared their previous and current challenges and how they approached solutions. 

I had the opportunity to ask some hard questions to a few of my personal game industry heroes, such as Ian Livingstone (Warhammer), Rob Pardo (Blizzard), Ted Price (Insomniac), Warren Spector (Deus Ex), and Alexander Seropian (Bungie). I also fondly recall the meetings with Lyndsay Pearson, who has worked with the Sims Franchise for over 20 years; she shared some fantastic learnings. I interviewed 103 different people and had over 250+ interviews, of which some were full days. On one occasion, I spent 6 hours with Sebastian Knutsson, going deep into the history of King with all its successes and failures.

I am so happy that some of the most successful people in this industry continue to share their stories.

What's next for you? What are you working on now?

There is quite a lot going on.

I am still interviewing, not because I want to write another book anytime soon, but because I have learned so much over these past two years and want to continue learning. I also share that I gathered wisdom through my company, Exploding Fist (an homage to the old Commodore 64 game ‘The Way of the Exploding Fist ‘), where I advise executives and management teams.

I spend a lot of time with Brendan “PLAYERUNKNOWN” Greene, running his studio named PP, where the development is exciting. I also have a small investment company named Smultron Ventures, together with Johan Eile, where we invest in early-stage game companies and gaming funds.

Final words

All I can say is: get the book from Amazon. You can do that by visiting Amazon US or Amazon UK and letting your industry peers know about Kim’s book.